Ford 600 Piston Pump Download

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Dennis Sebesta
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
I changed the hydraulic fluid on a ford 600 tractor, and overfilled it. I used it shredding for about 40 minutes. With time the hydraulics slowly stopped working. The tractor had set up for about 8 yrs. With time it took running the tractor longer and longer before it would lift, then stopped working alltogether. It has a hydraulic pump not the vane. Oil will comeout of the drain plug when running. I hooked a hose to it anf ran it back into the resivor, and it ran pretty good.
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souNdguy
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Hmm.. oil will come out of the drain plug when it is running so you ran it back to the sump?
The hyd sump of a hundred series does have some extra space in it for adding extra fluid for remote cyl's. i have 2g extra oil in my 660 and 850 with NO problems at all.
So.. are you saying that your drain plug leaks? ( since you said oil came out of it when running? )
These tractors have a seperate hyds sump, tranny sump, and diffy sump, each have their own drain plug and fill port... are you 100% sure you drained the hyds and filled the hyds. Hyd fill port is under your left thigh as you sit on the pan seat.
Did you bleed the pump after the oil change.
What oil did you use?
post back.
soundguy
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Dennis Sebesta
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I drained the hydraulic oil. No, the plug doesnt leak. I removed the plug and screwed in a pipe nipple, and hooked a hose to it and ran it back into the sump under the seat. It had a good flow from the pump. Initially I overfilled the hydralics and used it shredding for about 40 minutes, and then it slowly stopped lifting after that. I would run the tractor for about 15 minutes sometimes and it would start working, then slowly quit all together. Before it totally stopped it would hickup some also. I used a universal hydraulic fluid for tractors.
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awhtx
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Joined: 16 Jan 2002
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Location: Lampasas, TX
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
I think what you are calling the 'drain plug' is the small plug at the forward end of the hydraulic pump itself. If you have installed a fitting in this port and then connected a tube to it and put the other end of the tube in the filler port and confirmed that you have flow then you have confirmed that your pump is working.
Now, why won't your 3 point lift? If the tractor sat for 8 years there is a good chance that the seals in the system have dried out and cracked. Start the tractor and look inside the hydraulic compartment (through the filler port) for hydraulic fluid leaking internally. I'm going to bet that you need to remove your hydraulic lift cover and completely rebuild it with all new seals and o-rings. Be sure to replace the o-rings on each end of the hyd manifold between the pump and trans.
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ZANE
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
First thing to do is remove the fill cap on the lift housing and then while trying to lift the shredder look into the fill hole and you can see the open end of the ram cylinder that does the raising of the lift. If there is a steady stream of oil running out the back of the cylinder the ring/s are shot and need to be replaced.
If it is not leaking there it is possible that the pressure relief valve is leaking. It is easy to access on the Hundred series model tractor. Remove the plate on the right front of the lift housing. This is the remote adapter plate or if it has a remote valve there remove it. The relief valve is going to be the little spark plug looking thingy in one of the holes you can see when the plate is removed. Do not start the tractor with this plate off. Replace the valve. It is not serviceable. I have at times though taken the cap off and found foreign matter under the ball letting it not be able to seat. Do not adjust. If you do take it apart put the cap back only to the solder stop that held it before you took it off. Damage to the pump etc can result if it is altered.
HUNDRED SERIES HYDRAULIC TROUBLE SHOOTING
INCLUDING NAA SERIES.
First you must determine if the pump is pumping correctly.
Most of these round later pumps have two plugs in the pump The one closest to the front of the tractor and in the head of the pump is the one you use to bleed the air out of the pump after air has entered the pump. Air can enter the pump from a bad pump shaft seal and or bearings and it can also enter the pump through a leaky intake O ring or a small hole in the intake pipe. If the hole is above the oil level it will not leak when standing. Usually if it is below the level of the oil the oil will leak out slowly and make a puddle under the tractor according to how big the leak is.
If the pressure side leaks it will not make air go into the pump but will cause a loss of oil.
If it does have the two plugs the one toward the rear of the pump is for priming only. Pour in some oil if needed and put this plug back in. Take the front plug out and start the tractor and run until the oil that is escaping the bleed hole is free of air bubbles. Then shut down and replace the plug and the pump should be operable.
There is the chance that the gear that is the pump driven gear has stripped out it's spline in the center of the gear where it fits onto the pump shaft. This does happen but not often. I suspect that cold oil and a leaky pump shaft seal may be the problem.
It is hard to fix the pump shaft seal if it is in fact leaking. A special tool is needed to pull the roller bearing race cup and the old seal if you save the old race. You can get that race out by welding a bead all the way around the face of the race and let it cool and then it will come out easy as it is shrunk. Then you can drive out the old seal and the old needle bearing. Dirty job but it can be done/
If it is determined that the pump is operating right and supplying enough volume of oil under pressure to the hydraulic system then you may have a sticking unloading valve in the lift ram cylinder housing.
If the lift is jumping/bumping/hiccupping it is caused by the lift trying to hold the height constant with a leak internally of the hydraulic system. The leak must be fixed before these symptoms will go away. Common leaking places are the ram cylinder O ring/s, the pressure relief valve, the O ring on the unloading valve or a blown gasket under the ram cylinder to housing flange surfaces.
On the 53 and up Ford tractors there is a gadget named the unloading valve. It is hydraulically shifted by the movement of the control valve. The control valve does not actually move oil to the ram cylinder. The oil is directed to the ram cylinder by the position of the unloading valve.
If and when the unloading valve stops moving then the lift won't lift until the problem that is causing this condition is fixed.
A faulty back pressure valve can cause the unloading valve to stick.
The unloading valve can stick on it's own.
The unloading valve has an O ring that can become worn until it will not allow the valve to move.
The pump could have lost it's prime too. The piston pump must be bled by opening the front head plug in the pump and running the engine slowly until all air bubbles are gone from the escaping oil. Stop the engine, replace the plug and start the engine again to see if that fixes the problem. It can!
I would first try bleeding the pump by removing the front pipe plug with the allen head hole in it. Start the tractor and let it idle as slow as possible and when all the bubbles are gone stop the tractor and put the plug back in. You will loose about a half cup usually so put something under the pump to catch the oil.
If it won't work then you must go into the lift and take out the unloading valve and clean it up and replace the O ring with the Ford O ring made specifically for the unloading valve. The old part # was NCA 836B. Don't use a substitute or you will be sorry.
The unloading valve is covered by a plate at the front of the control valve housing just above the control valve. Their is a plug over the valve that must be pulled by inserting a bolt with fine threads into the plug and prying it out with two bars. The valve can then be pushed out with a punch of the appropriate size. Don't strike it with a hammer. The O ring will be on the unloading valve that needs to be replaced.
If you will look around on the other reference pages of the N board etc you can probably find some good views of the lift to give you some idea of what you will be looking at.
When taking the lift control housing off the tractor remove only the bolts that are around the ;outside edge of the housing and do not remove any of the bolt that are inside this circle of bolts. If you encounter a bolt that has fine threads on it put it back where you took it out. The fine bolts hold the cylinder to the cover housing.
LIFT LEAKS DOWN
Install an implement on the lift and raise it.
If the lift leaks down or has a bad case of the hiccoughs it has some sort of hydraulic leak internally. The most common place will be the ram cylinder ring/s. To check the ram cylinder for leaks you can remove the hydraulic fill plug and with a good light observe the open of the ram cylinder as seen through the fill hole. The best light to use is the sun light directed into the hole with a mirror. A good bright flash light will work. If you see oil coming out the back open end of the ram cylinder the rings need to be replaced.
Hiccoughs can also be caused by a leaking O ring on the unloading valve itself. Or if there is a lot of wear in the control valve it can cause it but is much less likely than the ram cylinder rings or the unloading valve or the pressure relief valve.
Also the pilot pressure relief valve can be leaking. It can be accessed by removing the remote hydraulic valve or the valve adapter plate from the top of the hydraulic lift cover that is directly under the seat and on the right side in front of the quadrant mounting point. The relief valve is not serviceable and should be replaced if suspected to be leaking or bypassing.
ON THE NAA SERIES TRACTORS THE RAM CYLINDER GASKET COMMONLY FAILS/BLOWS OUT AND WHEN IT HAPPENS THE LIFT WILL BARELY RAISE THE EMPTY LIFT ARMS.
THE RELIEF VALVE ON THE NAA IS LOCATED ON THE RAM CYLINDER HOUSING POINTING BACKWARDS AND THE LIFT COVER HAS TO BE REMOVED TO ACCESS IT TO REPLACE.
REMOVE THE RIGHT SIDE LIFT INSPECTION PLATE AND OBSERVE IF THERE IS A LARGE VOLUME OF OIL SPRAYING/LEAKING FROM UP ABOVE IN THE AREA OF THE RAM CYLINDER TOP.
Good luck.
Zane
See my web site at
ZANES HYDRAULIC STUFF
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souNdguy
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
I'm still not following why you hooked a hose from the drain plug under the tractor to the fill port... IMHO.. it wouldn't flow as the fill port is higher than the drain plug, and the sump is not pressurized.
simple sump overfill will not account for loss of hydraulics.
reccomend you do a pressure test by chaining the lift arms down and plumbing a gauge into the port on the trans option cover and then lifting the 3pt handle for a second to see what the gauge says...
soundguy
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souNdguy
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Hey.. that could be what he was talking about.. good idea...
Add to your advice that he needs to buy a manula.. owners and service. the owners manual will help him ID parts correctly.. and the service manual will help him with the lift cover R&R.
soundguy
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Dennis Sebesta
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Thank you all for the info. Can anyone tell me the best way to remove the lift cover? and is there anything that is hooked to it from underneath?
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AmericanSoldier
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Middle TN
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Hey there Soundguy.. in addition to my REPLY to you about my VOLTMETER question:
My FORD 600's hydraulics also have issue(s). My lift ONLY lifts about 3-4 inches and stops, (with or without a load on it) which beats the heck out of my bush hog and causes me to drag gravel and dirt with my box blade to places I don't need to.
When push down the lever under the seat down, the lift drops and then put lever back in postion, the lift goes back to the same 3-4 inch position.
At times however, (either with or without load) if I start the tractor with main lift lever in the highest position (and hold the lever under the seat, for a plow, I believe in the highest position), OCCASSAIONALLY, the lift goes up as high as it will go. But as soon as I go to adjust the lift for proper height for bush hogging, for example, the lift goes down and wont come back up, until I release the lever under the seat and then lift goes back to the 3-4 inches position mentioned earlier.
Any thoughts? please.
Americansoldier
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souNdguy
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Badly out of adjustment lift linkage, and or worn cam follower pin.
soundguy
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AmericanSoldier
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Location: Middle TN
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Soundguy, thanks for the reply. Is there a fix, a kit or something? I know nothing about hydraulics besides draining and refilling the reservoir.
Thanks.
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souNdguy
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
You would have to pull the lift cover and replace all the orings wheen you put it back together, plus service the cam pin and the cam if need be, plus adjust it. Refer to your manual for proper adjustment procedures.
No offense..but this is not something you want to dig into without a service manual.. especially if your limit of knowledge is taking a cap off and pouring oil in.
soundguy
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AmericanSoldier
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
soundguy
No offense taken. It sounds like it is over my head anyway. Can you give me a guesstimate on how much one might charge to do what you are talking about? Or do I just need to save my $$$$$$ for a newer model with 4 wheel drive and a loader on it?
Also, did you get the email I sent you about the dumb question on the VOLTMETER, I might have missfired the reply?
thanks again.
AmericanSoldier
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souNdguy
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
I do remember replying to a question about a voltmeter.
I imagine a tractor mechanic or dealer shop could do the service for you. it's not rocket science or anything.. but.. it helps if you are either familiar with the process or are generally well mechanically inclined and have the manual.. etc. If you have the manual.. look over the section.. if nothing jumps out and scares you.. you can probably do the job with some online help. there are many people her ethat own hundred series tractors.
As for a new one? That's your call. I wouldn't do it just because I needed a couple hundred dollars of lift cover work.. that is.. unless I really wanted a new tractor.. etc.
soundguy
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AmericanSoldier
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulic problem
Soundguy,
Really can't justify buying new Tractor. My neighbor suggested a
Hydraulic Pump Repair Kit, but it sounds nothing like what you are talking about. Taking your advice, next step is to buy a SERVICE MANUAL and look it over.
I will try the VOLTMETER solution tonight and let you know tomorrow.
Thanks again for the good info.
AmericanSoldier
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